Season Seven TEASER: Liminal - In-Between Places - Heterotopia

If you make a point of watching a sunrise or sunset, lay in bed a few minutes after waking to collect up the last bits of a dream, love the idea of meditation, but find it challenging, knowing there's spiritual gold to mine in those quiet-the-monkey-mind-moments? Well, you are going to LOVE Season Seven of Curious Cat.

If you're a longtime listener to Curious Cat, thank you. Truly from the center of my heart chakra. I show up for YOU. But, the magic of the in-between is something we've talked about LOTS in the last almost five years. 

If you're new to us, welcome. 

And for the benefit of me, and maybe you, here's a quick overview that captures the flavor of season seven...

When pondering, debating, writing or planning our focus tends fall to the extremes; this or that, which means we ignore the stuff in-between. It probably traces back to some survival mechanism our ancestors developed to determine what foods were safe to eat, what passages were too risky to travel, where we might be safe to sleep at night, and what hours of the day to do which behaviors. 

But like the ego, which we've discussed in past episodes, maybe it's time for a human upgrade. In fact, maybe the biggest breakthroughs in humanity lie in that juicy in-between space.

In the last years together we've covered some major ground when it comes to in-between spaces. First off, my key goal - to explore what it means to be a soul in a meat suit. On our journey, we've learned that when we focus our time and attention on pursuits that nourish both our body and spirit, there are huge payoffs. I call that the sweet spot.

From nutrition - eating with our chakras in mind, to activities like yoga that have both a physical and soul-nourishing aspect, to paying attention to our dreams (including day dreams!) How about when we were honest about the yin and yang of ourselves? The shadow self and light self? Remember how when we pulled those shadow traits, the ones sequestered in our soul basements out into the light, we tended to find our superpowers? 

We can observe the magic of in-between in nature, too. The blurring days, moments really when summer takes on a tinge of amber, a crispness in the morning, that hints to the season to come. What about daybreak? If you sit outside in the moments before the sun rises, you bear witness to the sounds of neighborhood wildlife waking up, beginning a pursuit of food and water; as well as observe the volume of your fellow humans turning their engines, setting off for work or school, an increasing pitch that's barely discernable until it is full-blown day. 

If you enjoy art, playing with colors illustrates the magic of in-between, moments of brilliance you never could have planned are immortalized on a strip of watercolor paper, the midpoint a dance between two contrasting hues. 

The in-between can be extremely uncomfortable, too. As a child of divorced parents, my in-between times were a stretch of I-5, miles of freeway that took me from one household to the other. Hard as I tried, I could never sleep through that journey. It was the equivalent of taking off a stuck Band-Aid over the course of fifteen hours. Those twice yearly journeys are the reason I am forever bonded to my big brother, even if we only manage to see each other every now and then because we live far apart. 

There's magic to observe, hell! harness in the in-betweens if we only take the time to observe them before they slip away. LIke wood sprites at twilight or ghosts that flicker in our peripheral vision, next time you catch a glimpse, stop and turn your head. Watch the in-betweens straight on and learn, soaking in that ethereal, otherworldly essence.

Listen/Read/Watch Until the New Season Launches in August 2026

Magic of the In-Between, Curious Cat Podcast

Dragon Magic with Monique Pliakos

The Angel of Mysteries & Magic, Raziel

Can someone please explain the concept of heterotopia? Reddit

Music Attribution:

Liminal Utopia (Ambient Loop) 84bpm by Boatlanman- -- https://freesound.org/s/852348/ -- License: Creative Commons 0

If you are searching for a fresh, binge-able podcast, this might be the one for you!

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:28

Hello.

SPEAKER_01 0:31

Folks, I hope you have your dance and shoes on because we're about to pivot. We are pivoting. Now, if you've been listening to the show, then you know that we've been pivoting for a while and we'll still cover AI and other stuff when we feel compelled. But we are diving in to uh do you want me to do a little teaser basically? Tease.

SPEAKER_02 0:56

Oh, yeah, Jen, tease me.

SPEAKER_01 0:58

Tease me. Okay. If you make a point of watching a sunrise or a sunset, if you're the kind of person that lays in bed for a few minutes after waking up to collect the last bits of your dream, if you love the idea of meditation but find it nearly impossible, but you also know that there's this spiritual goal to be mind in those quiet, the monkey mind moments, you're gonna love the next season of Curious Cat. Season seven is for you. So do you want to tell them about our theme and our solar episodes and interviews? Yeah, Jen.

SPEAKER_02 1:38

I mean, well, I this may be a this may seem uh shocking to the people who are into the you know, us talking about AI. Yeah, but what it what it's all the it that was a seasonal thing, and that's always been the plan, you know, and we've come to the end of that season. Uh so it's a topic that we're still gonna hint, like you said, but it's not necessarily gonna always be the focus of everything that we talk about. And so our new thing is uh liminal spaces, or as I like to say, and I'm gonna screw this up. Heterotopia. That was really good. It's the space between the worlds, yes.

SPEAKER_01 2:26

Exactly. So if you're a longtime listener to Curious Cat, first of all, thank you so much. Truly, from this comes from the center of my heart chakra. I show up for you. Jesse shows up for you. Yep. But the magic of the in-between is something we have talked about a lot in the last almost five years. If you're new to us, welcome. And for the benefit of me and Jesse, you're probably on top of it. But for the listeners, maybe here's a quick overview that captures the flavor of season seven. The flavor.

SPEAKER_02 3:06

The flavor, the flavor, the spicy flavor, the flavor.

SPEAKER_01 3:12

Yeah, we're not we're still audio, but my hair's down, so it's always spicy. But okay, so I just type this out. I grabbed this from a show I did on In Between Places, which I'll put in the show notes because it is like a good hors d'oeuvre. It's like a little shrimp wrapped in bacon that you get to eat before the season. But this is what I grab from it. When pondering, debating, or writing or planning, our focus tends to fall to the extremes, right? This or that, which means we tend to ignore the stuff in between. It probably traces back to, I don't know, some survival mechanism when our ancestors were in caves about what food was safe to eat, what passages were too risky to travel, where we might be safe to sleep at night, and what hours of the day to do what behaviors. But like the ego, which we've discussed in the past, maybe it's time for a human upgrade. That's what I'm rooting for. In fact, maybe the biggest breakthroughs in humanity lie in the juicy in-between spaces. So, in the last few years, we've covered some major ground when it came to the in-between spaces. So, you guys know I always say it at the top my key goal is to explore what it means to be a soul in a meat suit. That alone is a liminal space. Our journeys also looked at our time and intention and nourishing both the body and spirit. There's always huge payoffs, and I call it the sweet spot. So, from nutrition, we've talked about eating our chakras to activities like yoga and hiking that have both a physical and a soul nourishing aspect to paying attention to our dreams, which includes daydreams, guys. How about when we're honest about the yin and yang of ourselves, the shadow self and the light self, and bringing them both equally to the forefront? And remember how we pulled out those shadow traits together, the ones sequestered in our soul basements with like duct tape over their mouth. We dragged them out in the light, and that's where we found superpowers. We can observe that in between magic in nature, also. The blurring days, like Jesse talked about, the season of AI is over, man. Pumpkin spice is over. The moments when summer takes on this tinge of amber, like the crispness, finally in a morning when you step outside to put your dogs out, that hints to a season to come that's just so sumptuous. Or daybreak, if you sit outside in the moments before the sun rises and you hear the sounds of your neighborhood going from quiet to waking up into a full-blown day. And if you love art, playing with colors illustrates the magic of in between, like moments of brilliance you never could have planned, that are like this, they're immortalized on this strip of watercolor paper where the midpoint is this dance, and I've goosebumps now between two contrasting hues. The in-between, I'm just gonna go there, is it can be uncomfortable. It's very uncomfortable for most people. And as a child of divorced parents, believe me, I know there was this stretch of I5 from north to south that took me from one household to the other. And hard as I tried, I could never sleep through the journey. It was the equivalent of taking off a stuck band-aid over the course of like 15 hours. And those twice-yearly journeys were the in between, so uncomfortable, but they're the reason I'm forever bonded with my big brother, even though we only manage to see each other a couple times a year. There is magic to observe here. Even harness in the in-between, and that is like our goal of this season. We're not like waiting with bated breath to see what you harvest out of it, but we are kind of excited to see what happens with with ourselves and with each and every one of you, because take the time to observe when the light is dimming out your windows, and that's when wood sprites start flying around. Ghosts will flicker past in your peripheral vision. So next time you catch a glimpse, stop and turn your head and watch the in-between straight on and learn, soaking in that ethereal, that otherworldly essence. So that's my huge tease. I am so jacked about this.

SPEAKER_02 8:05

What a good tease. What a good tease, what a good tease. Doesn't that get you excited? Because I I I mean, I already was, and now I'm like extra excited. You know, it's uh we're we're recording this the first part of July. Yeah, and I know for many of you, most of you out there in the world, it is hot as hell right now. Hot as hell. Especially here. It's hotter than a $2 pistol here right now. Okay. So, but it's not that's not that's that this state of being is not going to last for much longer when you stack it up against things. Yeah, we're past the solstice, it's gonna start turning into fall. Yeah, you know, then it's gonna start going into winter, and that's not the time for technology for me. It never has been, you know. That is the perfect time. That is the that's that that the veil being loose during those months is what all of the, you know, it sparked so much of what that season is all about leading into Halloween, and that's kind of what we're talking about. Those spaces are uncomfortable a lot of times, like you said. Yeah, but there's no growth in comfort, you have to push into those dark caves sometimes. That's where you know, they tell you, like, uh, I don't know if you've ever heard this before, but like uh like like uh when you when you die and you see the light, like don't go towards the light, it's a lie, you know? Yes, I've heard that. You have to kind of journey into the you you have to sort of stay in the like the you have to journey in that dark space first, tippy toe a little bit to get to where you're going, yeah. And uh and that's uncomfortable, isn't it? And I don't I don't know if that's true or not. I I I mean I don't know any if anyone does, but um I've always been like, you know, that would be super scary, but that actually makes a lot of sense, you know. You it is a situation where and there's a lot of talk about liminal space and things lately, you know, and there's movies, and I mean it's turned into a thing, but it it's always been a thing that has fascinated me, you know, and I think it has you too, and like you said, yeah, there's there's physical liminal space, there's mental liminal space in your dreams, like there are all these things, uh, you know, and we decided to go with heterotopia, okay. Just to not be cliche. Well, yeah, okay. Let's see what we can do to the zeitgeist. That too, but also um I don't know, it it it seemed like it was a it seemed like a better definition in my brain. And maybe this is just, you know, because it's from the Greek and it means different other distinct, okay, and place. So, okay, yeah, that makes total sense. Heterotopia is a concept elaborated by the philosopher Michael Focal to describe certain cultural, institutional, and discursive spaces that are somehow other disturbing, intense, incompatible, contradictory, or transforming.

SPEAKER_01 11:39

Okay, and or I would say and or.

SPEAKER_02 11:42

Yeah, heterotopias are worlds within worlds, both similar to their surroundings and contrasting with or upsetting them. All right. Foucault believes examples can be ships, cemeteries, bars, brothels, prisons, gardens of antiquity, fairs, baths, Muslim baths, and many more. He outlines the notion of heterotopia on three occasions between 1966 and 1967. In a lecture that he gave a group of architects in 1967, is the most well-known explanation of the term. So it's it's sort of like a it's a it's a it's a it's a space descriptor, an architectural descriptor, but I feel like there's a lot more to the concept than what it was initially created for.

SPEAKER_01 12:38

I agree. And um, what came to mind also is alleyways. So if you guys like to walk your neighborhoods, my guides told me if you want to touch, get start getting comfortable with being in these kind of juicy in-between spaces, the heterotopia, then walk your alleys also. If you're safe and sound, if it's during the day and you don't live in the gritty underbelly of your your city, I'm thinking of Sam the Sky Guy.

SPEAKER_02 13:04

But these are places that are ignored. Yeah, normally you put your trash cans there, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:10

You're afraid of rats being there or something. And I actually think that the we are being called to put a spotlight on these spaces and harvest the magic there. And also just for people to know, like they'll see it in the show notes, but heterotopia is between utopia and dystopia. So if you want kind of a point of reference, heterotopia is it's those colliding worlds in between. Um, and I think that there is some amazing stuff to happen. The other thing I wanted to say is Jesse said it so well is these are very uncomfortable places, but fam, we are here with you during this journey. We're not going to be doing this in this, like, here is this spiritual gatekeeping way to do these things. We're literally exploring it like we do, which is just asking questions. And maybe I'm gonna feel dumb if I ask questions, but I never do because I'm asking Jesse, he can be asking me, you can ask us, we can press into it together. And uh, you're not on your own in this journey, and we're not on our own. Thank God for you guys being out there. And um, also the other thing that really struck me is Jesse, you were talking about how we're in between the seasons. No season lasts forever. None. They're always in transition and they always are fleeting. But what I find interesting is during the seasons that start getting darker and we're already past the summer solstice. So our days are getting longer or shorter. I don't know, they're the same uh length of time, but we're getting less light. That is telling us to spend more time looking inward, inside ourselves instead of outside in the world. We're changing the balance of that. So, anyway, this is a time to be playful as we always are, and we're gonna have the most interesting lineup of people that are coming on to talk about this. And who knows where we're gonna be in two months? Who knows where we're gonna be in two weeks?

SPEAKER_02 15:22

Yeah, I don't know. And and I I'll just I'm just gonna tell you guys, right? Which if you've listened to our podcast, if you listen to Jen and I together, you probably already know this. I am dumb. Okay, me too. So it's like it's I'm just on a journey too. I I I'm not, I'm not, we don't we don't gatekeep on here because I I don't know much, you know what I mean? I'm we're figuring all this out. Yeah, no, I'm not your guru. I'm figuring all this stuff out on my own, you know, and and with Jen's help, you know, and like uh we we didn't even know that we were gonna do this. We didn't even know how to define this until we started thinking about it and and it all started aligning, you know, like uh a couple weeks ago. And we were like, oh yeah, that's where this needs to go now, you know. Yeah, that's the next that's the next topic that we need to discuss. But we're we keep it real in here. We we don't get there.

SPEAKER_01 16:20

I don't either.

SPEAKER_02 16:21

I don't know. People tell me stuff every day. Every interview we've ever had, I'm like, oh shit, I didn't know that, you know.

SPEAKER_01 16:27

And we learn from the people that listen because okay, today is an example. I mean, I'm gonna the it is the beginning of July, and we put out an episode about the Alpine uh divorce phenomenon, and it was cool because uh Mahdia, who's been a guest on the show, and we're gonna have her back during this season, but uh she was going, Oh, I that called to mind this other case in Colorado. Did you did you know about this one? And I'm like, I did not capture that one, I did not know that one. So we are it's a perpetual thing of learning from you guys as well. And we so value you, and there's no hierarchy here, none. Like we are all equals on the pursuit of knowledge and information. It's I'm into this life interesting, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:15

Like I'm into this as much for me as I am for for for you guys out there. Like I want to learn stuff because I don't I don't know, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:24

Yep, exactly. So that's uh our pivot to season seven, and we are jacked up excited about it. Oh my god. And then I was like writing down things like other liminal spaces. Okay, so hit us, you guys, like in the comments or wherever on Substack. We've got all the links in the show notes, but hit us with places that strike you that maybe we didn't cover and you want us to cover, or if you want to come on and talk about this with us, you are there's a welcome, Matt. Hit us up. We would love to hear from you.

SPEAKER_02 17:56

Yeah, absolutely. Because we, you know, again, it it can be a pretty broad definition of like what exactly constitutes uh the this space between worlds, like we used to, you know.

SPEAKER_01 18:11

I just feel led to add to this little teaser for the season is these are places I feel like they're verboten. We're not supposed to look. The emphasis is on point A or point B. It's almost like pick a camp is endemic to our Western culture, like you're this or this or that or that. And it's like that's why there's discomfort in the in-between is I think that we're indoctrinated to, you know, have that discomfort. I mean, I even think of past life regression that um our friend Monique Pliakis is having a workshop for in a few weeks. And that is probably uncomfortable for people because they know what they feel like right now in this meat soup, but then slipping into the one before it, whoo, that could feel really scary for people. So, anyway, not with us.

SPEAKER_02 19:05

We're not thinking about the places that you go uh every day. Yeah. How how much attention are you giving to you know, most of the you're you're not noticing, you know?

SPEAKER_01 19:19

No, how many uh you're right. Remember, auto, it's like autopilot driving where you go, wait sure.

SPEAKER_02 19:25

How did I get here? Oh, yeah, okay, suddenly I'm here, you know. Yeah, but I mean it's a thing, you know, you're not you're not you're not walking into the lobby of like a uh of an old you know building or something and like really unless you're like a real like architecture nerd or something, you know? Yeah, yeah. You're not you're not noticing all these little details and things that you know, and and like you're in the space, but you're not you're not completely connected to the space.

SPEAKER_01 19:53

Exactly. And maybe we're missing out by disconnecting with the in-between. I just can't wait. So thanks for listening to our like super teaser for next season. And we cannot wait. We are starting, we're jumping, like it's literally happening in days after this uh teaser.

SPEAKER_02 20:15

I mean, it depends on when you get the teaser, but and start start catching up with us on YouTube because uh everybody's finding us on YouTube right now. So uh good place to listen.

SPEAKER_01 20:28

And and you know what else I'll do with this trailer is I will add links to shows that I've had in the past that really touch upon this. So it's almost like if you're just chomping at the bit, you'll have some stuff to listen to.

SPEAKER_02 20:40

A primer, if you will. A primer.

SPEAKER_00 20:44

I you know, it's like the shrimp with the bean.

SPEAKER_02 20:46

Is that if you do that? It's like a primer. I won't isn't there a thing? Isn't uh what do you call shrimp wrapped in bacon? Doesn't it?

SPEAKER_01 20:53

There's a fancy name. Yeah, there's a fancy French name for it, and I can't remember it because whenever I see it on a menu, I'm like, what does that sound like? That's not like I'm too busy eating it. I know, I love it. It's like it's such a 70s thing, isn't it? It's a 70s appetizer. Bacon, it's like mad men. What are the 70s, the most popular 70s appetizers?

SPEAKER_02 21:15

That'll be what we have in the show. I mean, all these all they're calling it online is bacon wrapped shrimp.

SPEAKER_01 21:21

I know there's like a it has another name. What's the fancy name for bacon wrapped shrimp? They're like le bacon. Oh, no, it isn't. That it this is not what I was thinking. Shrimp and brochet, that's not what it is because they added Monterey Jack cheese to it, which oh you know.

SPEAKER_00 21:49

I think that that's the uh that's the New Orleans one though, isn't it? Wait a second, yes, it is, and guess what? There's something called mermaids on horseback, a playful culinary.

SPEAKER_02 22:03

What part of it are we saying is the mermaid and the horse? What what wait wait wait now that the shrimp and the bacon? Like, who are we equating the mermaid part of that to? Is the mermaid the shrimp? Like, is it the bacon that wraps the shrimp? Because that's awful. That's like what a terrible thing to say about mermaids.

SPEAKER_01 22:27

It's a playful culinary adaptation of what is called angels on horseback, which is bacon wrapped oysters.

unknown 22:36

I don't even know what to do.

SPEAKER_02 22:38

Who in the okay? First off, who in the book is out there being a bacon wrapped oysters.

SPEAKER_00 22:47

All right, that's not what I've called anyway. We'll we'll tune in next week and we'll have some good stuff.

SPEAKER_02 22:52

We can I'll pull out my maybe some recipes. Yeah, I'll pull out my my I'll pull out some of my cookbooks. And you know what?

SPEAKER_00 22:59

Maybe I'll have my fondue pot going.

SPEAKER_02 23:02

Right? They're like I found them in a cabinet, they've been there since like 75. Of course you do.

SPEAKER_00 23:09

And did you give away any of them?

SPEAKER_02 23:11

No, no, I kept all of them.

SPEAKER_00 23:13

You're a hoarder in the making. I am not a hoarder. If you want one of Jesse's fondue pots, hit us up also on. They're decent, they're decent little pots. You have to be in the contiguous US, like 48 states, the lower 48, and he'll probably ship you one.

SPEAKER_02 23:30

Bye. I'll get you guys if you guys want a fondue pot, hit me up. I I I I like I said, I think I have three of them. I think I still have the box we came in.

SPEAKER_00 23:43

Enough about your fondue pots. Okay, bye, guys. We'll talk to you next week. Love you. Bye.